Episode 21: Protein, Gainz and the ISSN with Dr. Jose Antonio

Joey Antonio has been a positive force in my life since 2013 when I first heard of the International Society of Sports Nutrition (ISSN).  It took me a couple of years to get up the courage to get involved, and I attended my first conference in 2015 and finally had the guts to introduce myself to him and now Dr. Katie Hirsch (episode 18) in 2016.

In episode 21, we talk about his renegade career as a sports scientist (he really angered a few people along the way), his protein and protein supplementation research, and our favorite topic, the ISSN.

Dr. Antonio earned his Ph.D. and completed a postdoctoral research fellowship at the University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center in Dallas. He is the CEO and co-founder of the International Society of Sports Nutrition, as well as the co-founder of the Society for Neurosports. He is an Associate Professor in Exercise and Sport Science at Nova Southeastern University in Davie, Florida. His research agenda includes work on high-protein diets, sports neuroscience, and sports supplements. He is also the author of 15 books and over 100 peer-reviewed publications.

So what, now what?

Protein is a powerful macronutrient and should not be feared!  But...exercise is the most critical factor in overall health, so if you're not moving, GET MOVING!

Check out the ISSN

Register for the 2023 conference June 15-17.  Why go anywhere else!?!

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• Episode Transcript

  Annette Zapp: 0:00

  Hello Hello everyone and welcome back to the Fire Rescue wellness podcast. I am joined today by my friend, Dr. Jose Antonio. Joey say hello to my podcast people.

  Jose Antonio: 0:11

  Hello podcast people I am currently in South Florida, the weather is beautiful. It is 75 and sunny, I hope. Well actually, I know no one else is enjoying this beautiful weather but me, but I'm excited to at least try to edify the audience a little bit.

  Annette Zapp: 0:30

  It was three degrees when I woke up this morning, Joey. So thanks a lot. Okay. So very briefly, Dr. Scott Forbes, I know you know, Scott Forbes was on episode eight. And funny story after that episode, one of my firefighter colleagues stated that he was now convinced of the importance of creatine. And so he started taking it. And I said, you know, another supplement that might be helpful for you, as a firefighter, a good option for you would be protein. And he said, I'm not, I'm not doing it until a PhD tells me to. So this episode, Joe Galli, this episode is for you. All right, who is Jose, Antonio, tell us about yourself.

  Jose Antonio: 1:15

  Wow. And I liked that you've this episodes dedicated that one person who wants to learn about protein, but my background is actually a little bit different than most sports science people that you have had as a past guest. I actually was a biology major. And you got to go back to the 1980s, when there was really no such thing as exercise science as a degree. And my love was always exercise science. But I'm like, No, well, I guess I'll be a bio major, it's close enough. It's science, you know, if you don't have science, you can get by. And so I got my undergrad degree in biology at the American University, I got my master's in exercise Phys. This is from Kent State University in Ohio, where I froze my butt off for like two years. And I got my PhD from the University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center in Dallas, Texas, and that was in the early 90s. And just a little preamble, we're talking about protein, I want to tell you a little story. This was back as an undergrad, you know, as an undergrad, you know, you don't know anything. But at least I'm curious. I always say, I may not be smart. But I'm skeptical. And I'm curious. And I took a nutrition elective. Remember, this is back in the early 1980s. I remember the professor telling me or telling the class, if you eat a lot of protein, it's bad for your kidneys. And you know what, as a college student, no, but I'm skeptical because I'm thinking, Wait a minute, my uncle who's a bodybuilder eats a lot of protein. And he looks pretty healthy. And in fact, he is healthy. And when you look at you know, we all have a pair of eyes and we live through life. When you see athletes consuming a lot of protein, you're thinking hmm, either the professor is wrong, or they're wrong, the athletes, or it's somewhere in the middle. And that really stuck with me. And that's part of the reason and this is the transition to Kent State. Why I wanted to go go to Kent State University because a gentleman by the name of Peter Lemon was considered the preeminent protein expert at the time. And once you get into the mid 80s, to the late 80s, there was you know, the tide was starting to shift a little, where people were like, hi, you know what people work out, you probably do need more protein, but still, there was a lot of people who were highly skeptical and even would say things like, you know, it's still bad for you. It's still bad for your kidneys. And so that's you know, we sort of fast forward to the 2000s where I started doing a lot of my protein research at the at Nova Southeastern University, which is in Davie, Florida. And also as a segue to that, as you are well aware, the sports nutrition category is really a brand new category. If you go back before the year 2000. There were very few sports nutrition courses at the college level, it was exceedingly rare. In fact, sports nutrition as a as a area of research was frowned upon. And that's why for my PhD I actually studied muscle physiology because if you said hey, I like sports, nutrition, I want to study supplements, they would laugh at you it's like, that's not real field. And now you fast forward to 2022 sports nutrition as you know, it's a very exciting field. It's sexy, people want to learn about it and whatnot. So I would have to say the ISSN which you're a huge part of has played a role in promoting the science of sports nutrition whereby before the year 2000 You know, people would say there's no science any of this stuff it's all hogwash. It's snake oil. It's, it's it's bullshit. And it's just not true. As you know, there's plenty do science now particularly on protein.

  Annette Zapp: 5:02

  I absolutely love what I'm hearing right now is that you were a rogue renegade in the research world,

  Jose Antonio: 5:13

  Yeah. Well, here's to hear another story about how I was a renegade. In fact, this is going back, I want to say late 1990s, early 2000s. I don't remember the exact year but Jeff stout, who is a professor at the University of Central Florida. At the time, he was I believe, at Creighton University. I was at the University of Nebraska at Kearney campus, and we gave a talk on sports supplements at the American College of Sports Medicine. And before we gave the talk, I was telling Jeff, I was telling Dr. Stout, I'm like, Man, this is like the most boring PowerPoint ever put together. It's just boring stuff. He's like, Yeah, but you know what, ACSM has never had a talk on supplements. And so Jeff gave the history of it, like, you know, someone started taking supplements back in the old Greek and Roman days and stuff like that. It's like, oh, boy, people are gonna be really bored. You know? And then I talked about like creatine and vitamin C and some other like, I was like, Oh, my God, they're going to be really important because we How would I say we, we stuck to the facts without telling a story. And I think that's a mistake a lot of scientists make. They don't tell a story. Because there's always a story behind all of this. If you just stick to the facts, I call that bullet point lecturing. It's all your here are the bullet points. Here are the facts. And I'm like, Okay, you really bored me? No, I don't need bullet points. I could look at bullet points. But anyways, at the end of that lecture, we were attacked, like, verbally attacked. And remember, this is, this is before social media. So imagine if social media was God... there'd be like videos of this stuff. But it was one of the most interesting things where people literally went up to the microphone microphones, and started attacking us personally, not scientifically, personally, like, Oh, you guys, you shouldn't be here giving a lecture on sports supplements. This is all a bunch of hogwash. And just on and on and, and Jeff's like, holy crap, what just happened here? They're like, mad at us. And I'm like, Yeah, it's funny. You present science, and people get mad at you. I mean, but you know, that happens. It happens. But that's not even the worst thing that happened. You're gonna You're gonna die when you hear something? The the current president of the American College of Sports Medicine at the time, we happen to run into her at a like some cocktail party, you know, earlier on, let's have a beer, blah, blah, blah. And she came up to us. And she said this. And I remember it vividly. Because I'm like, I can't believe she just said that. She said, to both of us, if you want to have a career, you don't want to do any research. In supplements. I think Jeff was like, Whoa, did she just say don't do research? Like she said, Don't do research. And I was like, well, all what? Don't do research. Wait, I thought, That's what our job is to do research. Even if you don't like the area. Doing research is the only way to come up with answers. So that really shocked me, I was like, Oh, I can't believe I can't believe what I'm hearing. Now. It's not like this viewpoint viewpoint was unique. A lot of people thought that it wasn't just her a lot of people. And in fact, that really was a big falling out. For me, I was like, God, the American College of Sports Medicine, the culture of it is just so odd. To me, it was like very narrow minded at the time, and it's changed, you know, that was like 20, some years ago, and it's changed or now you can actually give a talk on, you know, creatine or something. But at the time, nobody wanted, you know, the idea of, of medicine, it's the idea of an academic nonprofit holding conferences, just on sports nutrition, was laughed at, and not just by ACSM. Also the ABA, the American Dietetics Association, they're now called the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics. They clearly were not fans of this. So, so the idea was just weird. I'm like, wait a minute, isn't science, the way you answer this stuff, not making personal attacks are just saying this field is bullshit. It's, you got to embrace science. And to me, the biggest mistake people make not just scientists, but people in general, is they they sort of go into this ideological camp where they have a preconceived notion about a field. And I'm a big fan of, hey, it's always good to be skeptical. But you also got to be curious. I mean, you if you're not curious, then you're no longer thinking scientifically. And so that whole thing, I mean, this was 20 some years ago, it's like, wow, but imagine how much things have changed. You know, you go to ISIS and conference and people they talk about nutrition, sports, nutrition supplements, it's, it's, it's to, to you and I, it's like, oh, it's normal, but you gotta remember, you go back to the 1990s. That wasn't normal people. Pool talking about this stuff at a conference was kind of frowned upon. So, yeah, it's, I mean, it's been an interesting, you know, past 30 years might say, but I've enjoyed it. Hey, you know, I don't mind being the villain every night.

  Annette Zapp: 10:12

  I love it. And it's interesting. I talk a lot about the ISSN. Because A, it's one big family, I feel like I just have family members across the country and across the world. But the second thing, I say this all the time, the people that present at the ISSN conference, are the most dynamic and interesting speakers. And I think now, I understand why. Because we don't stick to the facts without telling a story. We always tell the story during the presentation, you have just put a label on what I have always inherently understood.

  Jose Antonio: 10:50

  Yeah, and it's good that you understand it. But, you know, I always ask people, hey, what other you know, when they say, Hey, I want to go to SSN conference, first thing I said, Well, it'd be been the other science conferences. And you know, whether it's a yes or no answer, I tell people, well, this is a literature is not different, bad, but different, like interesting, and not your typical Science Conference. Like for instance, I think the most boring science conference I ever went to this is when I was a grad student was The Endocrine Society, you know, and I'm like, You know what, I kind of like endocrinology and exercise. Let's, you know, I'm gonna go to it. And I got, I was so bored. I was like, Oh, my God, this is so boring. I mean, it's, I call it bullet point, science. I'm like, Okay, well, thanks for telling me facts, while telling me the most boring story ever. I need. I hate to say it, I need a story. And maybe, maybe, is it do you and I have like short attention spans, and we need Hey, tell me a story, please? Or are we supposed to be happy with hearing bullet point facts? And I can't you know, when someone bullet points me to death, I'm like, I can't deal with this. So. And, you know, when you look at other, you know, just look at the podcast category. Why do people listen to podcasts? It's really to be entertained. It's like, Hey, that was kind of interesting. Oh, and I learned something, too. So that combination of telling the story and giving information is, is is I'd say, it's not natural for a lot of people, I think they have to learn it. And I remember the first time when I was a grad student, when my advisor said, Well, you got to tell a story. And I'm thinking, what is this like? Aesop's fable? I got to tell a story. I didn't even I didn't know what that meant. At the time. I'm like, Okay, well, I guess I'll figure that out. Not sure what it means. But, but yeah, but you get the gist. I mean, you're right. The community, the family, people who go to the conference, I mean, it's, I don't know, anyone who's like, for instance, I tell people, nobody stuck up, everyone will be happy to sit down with you and and talk to you about whatever about training about nutrition, about supplements. And there aren't these gigantic egos that you might see at other conferences. And that's a huge thing. I mean, there's some big egos, it's some of these bigger events. It's like, oh, my god, you guys are so full yourself. Come on, we're not curing cancer. Rocket Science, we're not like shooting a rocket up into space. Come on.

  Annette Zapp: 13:06

  That's, hilarious. Well, and and this also speaks to the way that I like to educate people in my stratosphere, whether it's on my social media, or whether it's on the podcast, I try to give them the facts, so that then they can do the so what now what, like, why should I maybe want to care? So today, I would like to educate the audience on why they might want to care about protein. And so my first question would be, what is protein? And what does it do for your body?

  Jose Antonio: 13:37

  Protein? Well, it's interesting, like, because I was a bio major, you know, protein was often viewed. Like we view it as it's one of the macronutrients, right? Protein, carbs, fat, whereas biologists typically view proteins as molecules. Yeah. enzymes that are made of proteins, you have actin and myosin which proteins, you have collagen, which is the most abundant protein in the body. So you almost have to separate are we talking about protein in a biological sense of protein in terms of food. And I think, you know, for us, we're really talking about food. And as you know, proteins are the building blocks of proteins or amino acids. And of the amino acids, the ones that are most important are the essential amino acids, the ones that your body doesn't make, so you got to get it in your diet. So when we're talking about protein, my initial interest in it really had to do with the constant, the absolute constant bashing of protein, and I'm thinking this is so weird. Why is it every year, going back to the 1980s? Every year, I hear someone and not just random people, we're talking about educated people saying that, you know, high protein diets are bad for you. They're bad for your kidneys. They're bad for your bones. And I'm like, and I here I am. I tried to Okay, let's, let's assume the right I'm looking for data. I'm like, Okay, well, where's this data? And I can find the date. I'm like, Where does this data that it's so bad for you and No, we're not talking about folks with chronic kidney disease, we're talking about normal, healthy, you know, people like, you know, let's get your average college student is 18 and 21 are typically healthy, would it be bad if they consumed a lot of protein and this constant refrain of it's bad, it's bad, it's bad. And here's something that you might find interesting. It is the only macronutrient where even scientists, they scientists, dieticians, doctors, it's the one macronutrient, where they will put a limit on like a hard limit, like if you do consume more than 1.6 grams per kilo. That's it don't do any more. And I'm thinking, But why don't they do that with carbs and fat? They only do it with protein. So what is this thing about? You have to limit protein? Because I guess you you waste it. Like you don't waste anything. Human body isn't meant to waste anything. But it's this hard limit. That's always been annoying. I'm like, why are they so hell bent on the 1.6 or 1.8 grams per kilo. So we're not even talking the RDA, which you know, is a total waste of time. 0.8 grams per kilo, blah, blah, blah. You know, but some people eat that for breakfast. It's like, come on, that's so ungodly, low. It's stupid for people to work out the RDA stupid, don't even stick to the RDA, you gotta get at least, here's my thing. Gotta get at least one gram per pound, or 2.2 grams per kilo, right? Now, if you are, here's the funny part. If you were to ask 100 Random scientists who are not part of ISSN, that'll be the that'll be the caveat. How much protein people should eat, they probably say 1.6 or 1.8, for people to work out. My next question is, okay, what happens if you go to two, or 2.2? Or 3.0 grams per kilo? What happens? And usually the answer is either they don't know or you waste it. Now, most scientists know you don't really waste anything, your if you don't use it for skeletal muscle protein synthesis, or the synthesis of non contractile tissue, you're still going to use it, you oxidize it as fuel, so you don't actually waste it. But really, the question is this, what's the downside of consuming let's go to 2.2 grams per kilo, or one gram per pound, what is the downside? And nobody's ever told me what the downside is that there technically is not a downside. If, if anything, if you consume that much, it means you're consuming less of carbs and fat. Now, if you're an endurance athlete, okay, you might want to fiddle around with that you don't want to drop carbs and fat because energy expenditure is fairly high. But if you're a strength, power athlete, you know, carbon, take fat intake, it's easy to get to, I think protein intake is the issue. So I think, if you focus on the one on protein intake, you can always backfill the rest of your diet with carbs and fat. And I think that's where people, you know, instead of putting a limit on it, I think, you know, sort of go higher, because it either will help you or have a neutral effect, maybe it'll have body composition by promoting fat loss, maybe it helps body composition, by blunting your appetite a little so you don't need, you know, other junk or just excess carbs or fat. So there there, there's two things going on. Why are people hell bent on limiting protein and seeing it potentially as bad? And why are people so hesitant to recommend a higher protein diet? That's always been odd to me. And, and when we did that first high protein diet study, this is going back to 2014, I believe, where we had people do two grams per pound, which I'll be honest, I can't do that. There's no way I'm doing two grams per pound. In fact, I tried it for a day and I'm like, Man, I feel sick. I just can't. One I couldn't eat that much food to I'd have to get it from shakes. And after one day, I'm like, I'm sick of shakes, I'm not going to drink like four shakes a day, just, you know, two grams per pound. But when we did that study, it was one of those. I remember doing it and talking to my friends. I'm like, Man, this is the biggest waste of time. I'm wasting my time because one, nothing bad will happen. I know that because I've been watching bodybuilders like 30 years. And to unless you change your training, again, nothing will happen. And what do you know, nothing happened literally because we didn't change our training. So nothing happened. body comp didn't change, nothing changed. So it's like, well, of course, that's what I expected. But people were shocked when we did the follow up study, the safety study showing nothing happened, meaning nothing in terms of a safety profile. It was perfectly safe. And again, we followed that up for you know, up to two years. Again, nothing happened. But the caveat is is these are people who train. In fact, a lot of them train pretty intensely. I mean, they're maniacs when it comes to training. So the question I get is, well, what if my aunt or uncle who you know, they kind of work Ah, but maybe they walk their dog and, you know, they might ride their bike on Saturday. And I say, well, first of all, they're not eating that much protein. Second of all, they don't want to eat that much protein. So for them, it's it's, it's it's a moot point, because that's not the audience that does it the audience that does it are people who train very hard. And as you and I know, tell me if you agree, hardly anybody trains hard, very, that very few human beings train hard enough to warrant that kind of protein. And that's why, you know, I tell people, the caveat is this, these people train hard, most human beings? Well, most human beings are obese, well, no, let's backtrack. Most Americans are overweight or obese. And then of the ones who are not overweight and not obese, they are sedentary. So now let's take the sedentary normal weight people and then there's a minority of them that train nothing else. My thing how small that group is, I mean, I'm so used to, you know, because we do studies on trade people I because I only my interest is and train people. But sometimes I forget, most people do nothing like nothing. So, you know, the high protein diet stuff I've done has zero application for them, because they do nothing. I mean, my you know, when they ask for database, you know, I tell you know, my diet advice, you stop eating junk, that's it, eat less stop eating junk. You know, don't worry about your protein intake, because it doesn't matter to you this is you don't do anything. So. So that's my little diatribe.

  Annette Zapp: 21:33

  I love that. And I think there's a couple of take home messages. First of all, you heard it here. The RDA for protein is bullshit. The RDA is basically set so that a human being doesn't die. Am I correct? Not for thriving, it's for not dying. And the typical human, whether they exercise or not. So let's just say the typical firefighter would be well served to start somewhere in the range of about a gram per pound of body weight, and then fill in with the carbs and fat. Is that what I heard from you?

  Jose Antonio: 22:12

  Yes. Yes. And in fact, one of the sort of, sort of the follow up question to that is, let's say you're dealing with a firefighter and they weigh 200 pounds. And he's like, You know what, my ideal weight is really closer to 180. So let's say they want to lose 20 pounds, should I go for 200 grams of protein or 180? And my answer to that is this, you're better off going for the 200. Let's say you're 200 pounds at your original weight rather than the 180. Because there will be times when you don't hit 200. Because it's just it's it's work. I always tell people eating like this is work. It's, it's not easy if you're not used to it. So go for the higher amount, because there's no downside to it. If you're doing 200 grams a day and you weigh 180 pounds, there's no downside to that extra 20 grams. If anything, it might blend your appetite a little so you don't have a you know, weird cravings. And also, that extra might help body composition, which, you know, I always say body composition, people say, Well, is it important? I'm like, well, it can be it kind of depends, however, in general. You know, let's exclude sumo wrestlers, and maybe offensive lineman in the NFL. In general, all right. I assume you don't have any sumo wrestlers to deal with who are firefighters. It's best if their body composition is good, meaning me know their percent fat is is helps them perform their tasks. Well, that in and of itself is an important thing. Is it a predictor of you know, the best body composition performs best? No. But if you carry a lot of fat, you will do much more poorly than someone who doesn't carry much fat. It's just basic physiology, carrying a lot of fat.

  Annette Zapp: 23:58

  This is an analogy I believe I got it from Dr. Jay Dawes, but carrying a lot of excess body fat is very much like loading yourself down with a whole bunch of tools. So it's physiologically more costly to walk around. But then you actually don't have any tools. It's just costing you more to walk around during a job. So body composition is is definitely important in our field. So I love that. Now, firefighters I don't know if you know this job, but firefighters are extremists. And so it's there either on or off. It's yes or no, there's no nuance whatsoever. And so what they're going to hear is that however much protein that I'm supposed to eat more is definitely better. Now, we know that more isn't dangerous, but more is not better in terms of it costs a lot of money to eat a high protein diet right? Um Your your people in your study in your protein overfeeding study, tell me about the protein farts was that bad?

  Jose Antonio: 25:11

  Actually, that wasn't the biggest issue. And they did complain to that well not even complained to them, it will give this as normal. Like it wasn't put his way. It's not a surprise. However, what was interesting was, I'd say, some of the initial studies, half of the subjects are what they would call themselves bodybuilders, but half of them were just people who worked out they ran, they lifted. I mean, they sort of like, Hey, I do this just to be you know, general fitness. So they weren't. They weren't necessarily trying to get bigger and one of my favorite subjects, and she was a tiny woman, I mean, she must have been 100 pounds. She was a great subject because he she stuck exactly to what was needed. You know, if it was three grams per kilo, she did three grams per kilo. She needed to do three shakes a day, she did three shakes a day. And I remember when we post tested her, she's like, you know, I have been hot and sweaty. Just so well. And she said, in order to fall asleep, and it's already hot in South Florida, so imagine like, okay, it's hot in South Florida. And now you're just hot from eating protein. She, she said she would lay in bed without any covers and turn the fan on full blast, because she was sweating all the time. I think I mean, that's a typical response. I mean, hers might have been extreme where you're just hot because why? You're it's the thermic effect of protein you are oxidizing protein is fuel it because you can't store it. Technically, it's not like you can store excess carbs as fat or excess fat as fat protein you can store. So she a lot. And she wasn't the only one. She had the best story. I'm like, Oh, my God must be I said, that must be really uncomfortable. So but all of them. In fact, there's another subject. I'm like, Man, you come in here and you always sweat. You're like sweating. He's like, bro, bro, in fact, that he volunteered for studies mainly because hey, I'm saving money being a subject because you're giving me all this protein. You know, so so to me, the most interesting, I don't even call it side effect because it's, you know, the thermic effect of protein isn't a side effect. It's it's an effect. That's just what happens. And all of them saying I'm sweaty, I'm hot. My clothes are all wet in the middle of day. Like, wow, this is? Well, you know, that's I guess that's a protein does. So it's kind of weird.

  Annette Zapp: 27:34

  So Joey is either studying protein or perhaps hot flashes one of the two. But his his subjects had the meat sweats. That's hilarious.

  Jose Antonio: 27:44

  Basically.

  Annette Zapp: 27:45

  And I'm searching back in my memory vaults here. And I'm thinking back to a talk you gave at NSCA national, I think it was in 2019 Excuse me, I believe it was in 2019. And it was on your protein overfeeding study. Now tell me if I remember correctly, you were overfeeding your research participants by 500 kilocalories per day. But that overfeeding was coming from protein. And they did not gain body fat. Did I get that right? Do I remember correctly?

  Jose Antonio: 28:19

  That's actually correct, in fact, but this was the sort of, I guess the limitation is that we had a high protein group, so they ended up roughly 3.4 grams per kilo. But the control which the control group, I told them, you're not supposed to change your intake, but they also increase their intake to roughly two to 2.2 grams per kilo. So in essence, it was a comparison of a really high protein diet to a high protein diet, which I'm like, Okay, well, it is what it is, and they're not supposed to eat more, but they're like, Hey, I'm in a protein study, I'm gonna eat more protein. But the interesting thing about that was that we put everyone on sort of the same traditional bodybuilding training program, which you know, split routine, chest, shoulders drives back by his legs, you know, you rotate it, take a day off, and you know, in between, and both groups gained the same amount of lean body mass. So whether you're a to 2.2 grams per kilo or three point something, they gained the same amount of lean mass. However, the higher protein group, even though they consume 500 more calories per day, they actually lost more fat mass, which fly ha, that's kind of weird. I mean, you know, when scientists find things interesting going, Wow, that's really weird. But they lost that mass. And we think it was, you know, protein has such a great high thermic effect. That has to be part of it. The other part is people say, Well, maybe they lied about what they ate, which as you well know, people lie about what they eat. In fact, they tend do they like For instance, if people who are overweight tend to underestimate their food intake and overestimate their activity. So people say, Well, did they lie about their food intake? And you know, my responses, we'll have one group lied. Wouldn't the other group license or both technically on a high protein diet, so that should be a wash if both groups are lying. So why is it why would one group lose more fat mass by eating more protein, you know, it has got to do the thermic effect of protein, maybe there's some effect on non exercise Activity Thermogenesis or neat or any at maybe it affects, you know, metabolic rate while you're sleeping, you know, sleep energy expenditure. There's all sorts of possible mechanisms. I, personally, am not interested per se, in the mechanisms like the Y, I'm more interested in the practical application, like if I do a, do I get B and C? Or do I get X or Y? And that way, you can give, you know, pragmatic advice to people versus you know, the mechanistic stuff, to me is interesting, but it's not the kind of research I want to do. I'm hoping someone else will do it. I think that would be great. But not my cup of tea. Right? Yeah.

  Annette Zapp: 31:12

  Well, that raises an interesting question. So our firefighters are very much a representative of the general population, which is typically about 70% overweight and obese. And so obviously, you know, great advice.

  Jose Antonio: 31:29

  Actually. Yeah, stop you there. Would you can you define because I always I like to ask this question. Question. One is someone who's overweight become obese? Like, what's the what's the metric?

  Annette Zapp: 31:41

  I just see that cited everywhere. overweight and obese. And I don't know, tell me?

  Jose Antonio: 31:47

  Well, well, I'm not sure I know myself. I know, the the, you know, BMI is often use if it's over 25, you're overweight. But I know plenty of guys are over 25 or muscular. But you can't do body comp on like, 1000s of people. So your BMI. I'm not sure because visually, you know, people are obese. I mean, visually, it's like, wow, they do carry a lot of extra fat. Overweight is a little trickier. Because it's are these people just chubby. Because technically, you could have athletes that are overweight, but they perform well, like a lot of the large football players, you might argue are overweight, but for their for their skill set and position, they kind of have to be that weight with a little bit extra fat because it's part of the skill set of that position. So I don't know, because I remember reading this paper that suggested by the year 2030 50% of Americans will be obese. And I think they use BMI over 30. And I'm thinking okay, well, outside of bodybuilding, if you have a BMI over 30 You're probably obese. But that's a you know, so that's obesity. Now what about overweight? So overweight is 25 of the 30. So, of the remaining 50% are how many are overweight? And this? This is where I'm not sure. I'm not sure what it is, you know, a lot of it is well, if you if you look at someone you when you see overweight, you know it's overweight when you see obese, you know, it's obese. It's, it's it's just one of those things where we you know what, when you see it outside of the athletic population, I'm not sure like is 25.5 overweight? I in terms of BMI? I don't think so. I think my BMI is like 26 or 20. So whoa, wait, just kidding me overweight? Hell, I don't like this definition. So, so yeah, it's a it's like when you're dealing in part of it. This is sort of a personal curiosity when you're dealing with firefighters. And you have to decide are you overweight or obese? Do you do tell them that? Is this like part of the conversation? It's like, Well, you tell an obese person overweight and just use overweight or this word obese carry with it, some sort of stigma that no one wants?

  Annette Zapp: 34:08

  Well, maybe I have a better way of asking the question then. So instead of referring to overweight and obesity, I'll ask you this way. Our firefighters are very much apt to get cardiovascular disease, potentially due to their body composition, their inactivity, the high performance demands placed on them their sleep deprivation, there's there's lots of things tied up in it. So as a population that suffers from cardiovascular disease, is there any space in the discussion for talking about controlling body composition with protein or other sports supplements?

  Jose Antonio: 34:56

  So you sort of dance around it without You're like square dancing without getting to the main point, which I guess you have to do. Because I guess with some people, that's how you have to communicate. So, but I see where you're going. It's, we have these risk factors, what's the best way to deal with them? And is body composition part of what we need? Yeah, do which? Yeah, I mean, I guess that works could work for a lot of people. Others might need more direct, you know, they might say, hey, just just tell me in it and my fat, my fat? Do I need to lose weight? Just tell me I need to know. English.

  Annette Zapp: 35:40

  So I feel like, I feel like there's space in the discussion, though, to educate firefighters on the potential for, you know, increasing their protein intake to help, you know, decrease their hunger response, increase their thermic effect of eating all of those types of things. Would that be a true statement?

  Jose Antonio: 36:06

  No, that's definitely true. And, you know, people will say it's difficult, which I agree with, because I agree protein and fat that combination, um, excuse me carbs and fat, the combination of carbs and fat tastes better and protein. It just does. I mean, you know, I always say, in fact, you know, my daughter says that she's like, you know, I could be completely full, but you put dessert in front of me, all of a sudden, I have room in my stomach. But if you're completely full, and someone puts another slice of steak, it could be the best steak you're like, I'm full, I don't think have room for steak. So our tongues I mean, it sort of makes sense evolutionarily, once you're full and satiated, maybe your tongues like, Huh, you know what, I wouldn't mind a little bit more sugar and fat because it's, it's easy to digest. It's flavorful. I've gotten enough protein, let's say from a meal. But I think it's important. That protein is emphasized. And I'm not a big fan. I always say dieting or nutrition shouldn't be about mathematics. But if there's one thing that someone can track, it would be protein intake. So you know, you get your one gram per pound, let's say 150 pounds, and you get your breakfast, lunch dinner. So you're averaging 50 grams per meal, which isn't terribly difficult, but you know, it requires work. But I think as long as that number, and that goal is always in their head, and they're aware of it, and they're cognizant of it, they will do their I think most people do their best to hit it. Now, I always tell people doesn't mean you'll hit it every day. And there might be some days where you get more, maybe on, you know, weekends, you like to go out with friends. And you probably eat more total calories. But because of that, you're probably also eating more total protein and you go over it, that's fine, too. But don't expect to hit it all the time. I mean, there's going to be a point where you're just going to drive yourself crazy trying to hit, you know, hit a number, which, you know, the point of this isn't to hit a number, the point of this is to make a permanent lifestyle choice and change that is sustainable. And I think that's the hardest part. I don't know, you know, what experience I've had. And I always tell people, I don't really like working with humans, because most of them don't listen to you, and they can't sustain anything. So the few I work with, I'm like, Okay, I know you're highly motivated, you'll actually do that give take the advice I tell you. So I work with USA, I work with few humans. I mean, they're like, Well, what do you work with? Few humans, I just can't deal with, you know, large number of humans getting advice from me. But that's hard for a lot of people is the idea that they have to sustain it. You know, when, when people ask me for general exercise advice, you know, the first thing in my mind is, are you willing to do this forever? I mean, till you can do it, not for the next 28 days, not for the next six months. But are you willing to do this forever. And I think that kind of scares a lot of people, but until, until the reward is internal, meaning, you know, somebody will work out because they look better, you know, they get abs or whatever. But the reward ultimately has to be internal meaning you do it because you just like doing it, and you feel better from doing it not, not you look better, all looking better is a good motivator. But at the end of the day, you know, when you're 50 or 60, you're you're planning on doing it look better you're doing because you feel better. And feeling better is really 99% of it. If you feel better, you're probably just, you know, overall life is better.

  Annette Zapp: 39:26

  So preach it that is as a 51. Soon to be 52 year old. I just want to feel better.

  Jose Antonio: 39:34

  Yeah. I don't know about you. But you know, I just I turned 60 This year, and I have this weird perspective, because I'm always around college students. So I'm around 18 to 21 year olds all the time, right. So I always think I sort of feel like that story of like the boy who gets adopted by wolves and thinks he's a wolf. Well, sometimes I think I'm between 18 and 21. I mean, not, not seriously but because that's who I'm around and I'm around all these people. Workout and you know which 90% of them are in better shape than me. And then I realized when I wake up in the morning and like, Oh my God, I am not eating I am not. My body is sore. And I am not recovering like I did when I was in grad school. So, but you know what, it doesn't stop me from working out. I'm like, Okay, I'm sorry. That's it. But hey, the alternative is 100 times worse, doing nothing is the worst thing you can do. And the moment you quit moving, the moment you quit exercising is the moment you start dying.

  Annette Zapp: 40:36

  I agree so much. Well, I want to be super respectful of your time. And so I usually end up with is there anything that I should have asked you about protein, or your protein research that I missed the bus on?

  Jose Antonio: 40:52

  Yeah, the way which summarizes is one. protein intake is important for people who don't exercise as well as those who do. However, the people who are going to sustain consuming a higher protein diet and let's call it one gram per pound, are generally people who work out people who don't work out, I'd say, don't even worry about it. Because if you don't work out, protein intake is the least of your worries, you need to move your body. So that's number one. Number two, there's no evidence that protein is bad for your kidneys. Even if you eat a lot of it. One of my subjects, he consumes 500 to 1000 grams a day every day. He's perfectly healthy. Yeah. First of all, I think it's it's incredible. You could eat that much. I mean, forget the health stuff. I'm like, how do you eat that much. He's like, Hey, bro, I do eight shakes a day. And then I like steak and tuna and chicken. I'm like, Whoa, okay. Cool. The other thing is, I don't know if you've heard this. But the idea that protein intake is bad for bone mineralization, particularly with women. And, you know, I did that one year study. And again, in highly trained women, eating a high protein diet, no effect on bone, mineral density, their T score or anything. So when you're dealing, here's the thing, nutrition, protein, et cetera, et cetera, are important things. But the signal that is most important is exercise. If you're not exercising, all this other stuff is just fluff. And that's why I tell people dial in on exercise, make sure you got that correct. And then worry about the sort of secondary stuff, which would be diet, protein intake, et cetera, et cetera. So people you work with, if they're not training, and you know this, if they're not training, it's like, Well, you got to train and the reason I emphasize so much on the training part is people who train it affects all the other behaviors in their life for the most part, we're talking about in the aggregate obviously, there you know, I'll give my dad as example he used to smoke before he worked out like okay I'm gonna you know, he'd before he'd get on those stair stepper, he's like, I'm gonna have a cigarette because you know, a pipe smart. Oh, my God. Yeah. So, you know, there are people who do weird, weird things. So, but in general, if you train, you tend to eat better, you tend to sleep better, you tend not to smoke, the drinking part. Now that's all over the place, because I have plenty of friends who love to drink so. But in general, you know, the the idea that good behaviors cluster, whereas bad behaviors also cluster. Exercise is the single most important behavior. I'd say diet follows that and maybe sleep follows that and then maybe having good friends follows that not being a prick follows that. People like Well, you shouldn't be a prick at all, you know, some people are pricks and they work out for you. So dial in the training, and then get that nutrition in there and make sure that's right.

  Annette Zapp: 43:44

  I love it. Well, I will definitely put the ISSN website in the show notes. Is there a particular way if a listener wanted to reach out and contact you, is there a particular best way that you would like them to use?

  Jose Antonio: 44:00

  Yeah, actually, the easiest way would be, there's an email listed on the ISSN site. It's issn.net That is I SSN dotnet just you can contact me through there. Also, I want to make a crass commercial plug for the ISSN conference June 15 to 17 in Fort Lauderdale beach, the beach is beautiful. You will love it. It's a lot of fun. So that conference, it's our it's our 20th conference and you know, as you know, you learn stuff, but you also meet great people and it's also a lot of fun.

  Annette Zapp: 44:31

  I could not endorse that statement more it is something that I look forward to for the whole year. I plan my year around it. I plan my vacation around it. Let's all go to the ISSN conference because what's the tagline why go anywhere else?

  Jose Antonio: 44:49

  Exactly.

  Annette Zapp: 44:49

  Well, Dr. Antonio, my friend, this has been wonderful. I appreciate you and listeners. This has been Joey and AZ and we are officially out