Episode 14: Aggressive Mediocrity with Jay Dawes, Ph.D
My great privilege was to record Episode 14 of the FRW podcast in person with my friend Jay Dawes while we were recently both in Indiana presenting at a conference.
As is typical with our conversations, hilarity ensued, so apologies in advance for the hyena-style laughter throughout the episode.
Jay and I spoke at length about how lifetime consistency and attention to being average are helpful for first responders who are so apt to focus on all or nothing. We discussed his recent unbelievable performance on the Stillwater SWAT testing protocol and took a hard look at fit-for-duty testing and related benefits and pitfalls.
Jay Dawes, Ph.D., CSCS,*D, TSAC,-F, is committed to helping improve first responders' health, fitness, and occupational performance. He is currently an Associate Professor of Applied Exercise Science at Oklahoma State University and the OSU Tactical Fitness and Nutrition Lab co-director.
So what? Now what?
Consistency is critical, and small changes can yield significant results in tactical performance. Fit-for-duty standards, although important, should be validated and non-arbitrary.
Contact Dr. Dawes at:
https://jay.dawes@okstate.edu
Grab a free PDF and subscribe to the newsletter!
http://www.firerescuewellness.org/pdf
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Annette Zapp: 0:02
Thank you for joining me on the Fire Rescue Wellness podcast. I'm your host AZ. I find the research and resources and then provide the fire service with the So what? Now what? to ensure the health and well being of every member of our profession. Together, let's thrive. Hey there everyone its AZ back for yet another episode of the Fire Rescue Wellness podcast. I am here with my good friend Jay Dawes. We are in a random hotel in the middle of Indiana. Why you might ask? Well, tomorrow we are presenting together with our friend Troy Torrence at the Indiana Public Safety Health Symposium. Jay, say hello to the people.
Jay Dawes: 0:44
Hi, everybody.
Annette Zapp: 0:45
This is already take 2 because Annette forgot to hit record on the first take. Luckily, it was only 90 seconds into the podcast. So who's firing on all cylinders? As usual, I like to tell everyone how I met my guest. We met in an elevator in a hotel that was under construction while we were both at the NSCA revising the TSAC practitioner course. So anyway, I always start all of these podcasts today with my rapid fire questions. Jay, who are you?
Jay Dawes: 1:16
Oh, well. So in short, my purpose I guess is to help improve health fitness and occupational performance for first responders.
Annette Zapp: 1:29
Very cool. Can you see already why I like Jay? Jay, what sets your soul on fire.
Jay Dawes: 1:37
Really just helping people. I mean, I think that's, you know, by and large, wanting to help improve, you know, individual's overall quality of life. Because really, when you do that you don't only touch them, but you improve the quality lives for everybody around them as well.
Annette Zapp: 1:50
100% It's like that force multiplication that we keep talking about. All right, Jay, this is a really hard question. Take your time. How are you changing the world?
Jay Dawes: 2:00
Oh, well, hopefully one person at a time. So we're, you know, trying to help educate people trying to help disseminate information to help them basically individualize the types of changes they need to make in life to, again, overall, improve their overall health and performance.
Annette Zapp: 2:18
I endorse this, I like it. Jay, you you're kind of like the one of the OGs in tactical. I mean, I'm gonna say you are. So how did you actually get into it?
Jay Dawes: 2:29
Yeah, and I've heard several people call them the one of the OGs, which means I'm an old guy. And I've been around for a while. But really, it was really just the right place at the right time, it was really fortunate to one of the tasks was strength conditioning program started at the NSCA. I had been hired on as education director there in 2007. And Mark Stephenson had been doing a lot of work with 10th group and also the Colorado Springs SWAT team. And really, he came to me one day and said, "You know, I think this program has legs, I think this is something that can be taken out to the masses, that would be really helpful". And, yeah, originally, we started moving forward on the program. I think, you know, I've told this story before, but ironically enough, it wasn't necessarily fully supported at first, not for necessarily negative reason. But I think the NSCA was originally concerned that it didn't really fit the mission of the NSCA dealing with athletic performance. And that's when we had to really make the case for the these individuals being tactical athletes. And when we say that, not necessarily that they're athletic, but they should get the same services that an elite level athlete does, so if we're concerned about the performance of a athlete, and we're gonna provide them the different services necessary in order to help facilitate that, then first responders really should get that. And that's really kind of what, you know, set me on fire with this. And, you know, prior to that, really, the majority of my career was more in the athletic performance space. And really, it just completely shifted my whole career path.
Annette Zapp: 3:59
So you left the NSCA. And then what did you do?
Unknown: 4:04
Yeah, so when I left the NSCA, I actually moved to Corpus Christi, Texas, and taught down there at Texas A&M Corpus Christi for about three years. While I was down there, I was really, really fortunate to get a chance to work with the Corpus Christi police department as well. And just an amazing group of people down there, they really took me in and let me come in and kind of helped with some of different things that they were doing, and worked a little bit with the SWAT team, but really, mostly with their training academy. You know, originally most of my experience has been kind of with the the SWAT teams and things of that nature with like your SWAT and you know, special units and things of that nature. And when I went down there, they said, hey, that's great, but you know, they kind of got things down like we really need more help at the Academy level. And, again, it was just a great experience because you know, getting to get people when they first walk in the door to you know, their new career and profession. You're trying to get them off to the right start and try to help give them some things that'll be useful for them over the occupational lifespan.
Annette Zapp: 5:04
And while you were in Corpus Christi, where are you doing research and publishing research?
Jay Dawes: 5:10
Sort of, I was really pretty terrible at it at that point to be honest with you, so full disclosure, I didn't have a super traditional PhD experience. I got my PhD from Oklahoma State. However, I, before I moved to Colorado, I had about 32 hours in residence. And most of that was my coursework. During that whole time, I actually owned a gym, I was teaching at another university. And you know, I didn't really have a whole lot of research experience. And whenever I got the job offer the NSCA, I talked to my mentor about it. He said, "Man, you got to take that job". And I said, "Well, you know, how am I going to finish this?" He said, "Well, if anybody can do it, you'll figure it out". And so after eight short years, I became a doctor. And as my daughter says, not a real doctor, or the kind of helps people but one that teaches. But yeah, essentially, when I got out of the Ph.D program, and in, you know, I finished up on as in Corpus Christi, I really, from a research perspective, didn't know what the hell I was doing. And that wasn't really necessarily from a fault of anybody that was mentoring me, it was just the fact that I just didn't have a whole lot of experience. So kind of bluntly, I spent the first three years just trying to figure out how to do this. So I did produce some research down there, definitely not to the extent that I have since I left. But really, it's the first three years of just trying to get my bearings and figuring things out. And frankly, I left probably a whole lot more data on the Lab Floor than I ever got to publish. So yeah, it's been a journey for sure.
Annette Zapp: 6:48
So would you say you had a very average experience with your PhD?
Unknown: 6:54
No. So the Ph.D was fantastic. However, I would say I was very average. As far as my understanding, like I said, everybody that was a mentor for me was fantastic. It's just I didn't have it's just like sports, I didn't have the reps, you know. So basically, you know, they taught me how to go through the research process, they taught me, you know how to do it correctly, I just didn't have a whole lot of experience doing it because I was busy being a practitioner at the time. So it really was one of the things where when I went down to Corpus, I kind of just threw myself in the deep and try to figure it out. And like to arguably I was not great at first, and arguably I'm, as we joke about for being aggressively mediocre, I'm probably that now, but I think that's, you know, in reality, there was a I don't know if you guys remember, there's a strength coach named Steve Liske. Steve's brilliant man. But he said in order to be a better specialist need to be a better generalist. And I think in a lot of ways, that's kind of the space that I feel is I'm, I'm pretty okay at most things. But I wouldn't say I'm really just fantastic at anything. But I am pretty good at knowing what my limitations are and finding the right people to help complement what I do to make sure that we have a good product at the end of the day.
Annette Zapp: 8:08
So one of the things that Jay, and I joke about all the time is being mediocre being average, but actually he has absolutely weaponized that as a way of excelling in both his career and his life. And in the way that he coaches people. Jay, I'm gonna put you on the spot, and I want you to tell them, I want you to tell them about your SWAT test that you recently completed. Tell them about the SWAT
Jay Dawes: 8:37
I can't believe you outed me on that. Okay, cool. testing. So, all right. So I'm doing a lot of work with the Stillwater Special Operations team and just an amazing group of human beings. And they asked me to come out to help them do some selections for a Oklahoma SWAT competition that they were doing. And so they had to do basically an obstacle course slash relay race type scenario. And they wanted me to help narrow that down to maybe the top five people that I thought would be successful. So I did that. And we get to the end of it, and they go, "Hey, Doc, you want to run it?" And I'm like, "Well, yeah, sure. Of course, I do." I don't know that I really did. However, I wanted to make sure that you know, the guys knew that I was in and that you know, if they're doing it, I'm willing to put myself out there and you know, even though I would may look ridiculous doing it, they needed to know that I was willing to put myself through the things that they were willing to do to a point obviously. So basically, they put me into gear and I threw the door open and I came out hot. I was you know, keeping a really good clip. And you know, everybody was cheering it was fantastic. And there was one specific segment where you had to hit a telephone pole with a battering ram. And by the time I got to that point, I mean, I've been over and under obstacles and through, you know, mock windows and things and I get to that point. And I'm still feeling great. And I hit the telephone pole five times. And the next step I took, I'm like, "Oh, it hit me and I went way anaerobic. And I'm like, I don't know if I can bring myself back down enough to actually get this thing done. But I'm like, alright, well, everybody's watching. So don't stop." And, you know, there's kind of that duality of it too is like, you know, being the quote, unquote, fitness guy, it's like, alright, just don't stop, you got to keep moving. And so there's a slight uphill the rest of the way you get around to the staging area, and you have to do like, five Up Downs. And, you know, kind of like I'm up to see me, I'm down kind of a three to five second drill almost. . After that, they had a 185 pound dummy that you had to pick up and pull into the back of the car. And whenever you did that, it was done. And so I did it, and had a really decent time. So they were all pretty excited about that. And they were really pumped up that I actually did it. And so, at that point, I was pretty worn out. So I just had a seat and the guys go like, Alright, we're gonna go back to the station. And we'll, we'll see a little bit like, yeah, hey, I'm gonna go gotta run home quick, real quick, then I'll, I'll be there. And as soon as I got my car, all of a sudden, like, it started going narrow, I'm like, "oh, like, I might have to get ready to pass out". So I kind of sat there and got my bearings for a second, like, Okay, you gotta pull this together, man. So I did. And I drove across town. And by the time I get to my neighborhood, I'm like, "gosh, dang it, I'm gonna, I'm gonna have to throw up". I pull into the neighborhood. And all of a sudden, there's like a couple cars that pull in behind me. And I'm like, alright, you can't like just throw up here, you're gonna look like a day drunk. So I have some respect and get home and throw up in your backyard. Like, you know, you should have some dignity. So I did that. And then I kind of fell into my hot tub for 10 minutes. And yeah, after that, I was sweet. But it was a it was a challenge to say the very least.
Annette Zapp: 12:00
I have questions. What was the qualifying cut off time?
Jay Dawes: 12:05
So well. So the qualifying cut off time was under six minutes to be on the team. However, they were all trying to get under 430. I hit 318. So yeah, but it was there was a significant cost that went along with that. So.
Annette Zapp: 12:23
And Jay, you're how old?
Jay Dawes: 12:25
46
Annette Zapp: 12:26
At 46 years old. He completed the SWAT qualification obstacle horse under a minute or over a minute under the qualifying time. So the message that I would like you to hear is that this man being mediocre throughout his life has paid off in spades.
Jay Dawes: 12:46
Well, I'll say this, like, again, I, I'm definitely not the most talented. I'm not the brightest, however, like it's, I usually don't quit, and it's really hard to outwork me. Like, I'll usually keep going, almost to a fault to be honest. But anyway.
Annette Zapp: 13:04
All right. AZ has lost control of the podcast, we're gonna get back on track. All right, so you're at Corpus Christi. And you said you were there for three years?
Jay Dawes: 13:11
Yes.
Annette Zapp: 13:12
And then what happened?
Jay Dawes: 13:14
Well, so three years later, I actually had two job offers, or two opportunities to apply for jobs. And I ended up not getting one and got offered a position at University of Colorado, Colorado Springs, which ended up being the best thing that could happen to me at that point. Because when I got back there, I was very fortunate to get introduced to Trooper Ryan Holmes and Charlie Kornhauser. And again, just two amazing human beings who have, you know, become to my best friends in reality, but also just fantastic collaborators as well. But I was actually referred from Captain Ed Shannon, at the Corpus Christi police department to the guys at the Colorado State Patrol and had the opportunity to work with them for kind of off and on for about six years. And yeah, just again, an amazing experience. And I think, really, that's to their credit, they're just, they were so incredibly progressive with what they were doing. And again, I was very fortunate to be there just at the right time to kind of be a part of that. So
Annette Zapp: 14:16
And was there sort of a theme of the research that you were doing in collaboration with those troopers?
Jay Dawes: 14:21
There's yeah, there's numerous things actually. So originally, we started out we were going to try and create some kind of online training materials in order to disseminate out to the troopers because again, they had roughly I think, at that time, don't don't quote me on this, but I'm gonna say about 760 uniformed officers that were spread out all over the state. And so basically, we're trying to figure out some way to get them the materials necessary in order to get be proficient for the job and to you know, handle their fitness and wellness and things of that nature. And, and that was also before a lot of the newer apps and things like that had came out. So we're trying to put something together in that space in order to help get that in permission out to them about, oh, I'd say, a little less than a year into that, we actually got called in by the chief, and which I thought we were just going to have a nice meeting with the chief and his administrative assistant.
Annette Zapp: 15:17
Never a nice meeting with chiefs. Jay.
Jay Dawes: 15:19
Well, it was funny, I walked in, and there's like, 18 administrators in there who are pretty high ranking in that organization. And I'm like, What the hell have I walked into. And so I just sat down and shut up, because I wasn't really exactly sure what we were getting into. And basically, they said, they wanted to try to move forward with creating a validated fitness standard. And so, you know, really, the work that Charlie and Ryan and I did was really centered around that for probably the next three, three years or so. We, in order to collect that data, we had about a four month timeframe, where we were trying to get all that information together and all the data collected in order to make some kind of actionable recommendations for for the State Patrol. And, again, it was a pretty intense period, as far as like trying to get that data collect. I mean, I think if memory serves, you know, when we were asked, like how long it would take, and like, we'll it's gonna take about a year and probably, you know, probably close to 100,000 bucks to do this whole thing. And they said, You got four months, and we can spend about 4000, can you do it? I'm like, well, it's ambitious, we can try. Because I didn't want to say no, because it's one of those things where I think we all knew that it was our opportunity to help do a lot of good for a lot of folks if we can pull it off. And I definitely made no guarantees. But during that timeframe, again, we collected a lot of information that really helped guide best practices within that organization and association. So we're pretty proud of that.
Annette Zapp: 16:46
I love this segue, because one of the things that I wanted to talk to you about was fit for duty standards. And many agencies, many individuals, I hear them making comments like we need a fit for duty standard, or we need standards in general. And the the possible tripping points that I see are that these standards are sort of arbitrary, right? So we're having them do XYZ obstacle course. And they need to do it in two minutes. And it's very arbitrary. So can you sort of back it up? And tell us about the research that you did to validate your standards? And then anything that happens sort of after that process?
Jay Dawes: 17:27
Yeah. So it's, the whole validation business is a really interesting business, because you have to. So I guess, to back up, when we started that whole process, basically, we were all in agreement that at some point in time, we were going to be sitting in court, and we need to be able to justify why we did what we did. And the reality of it is, is even at that rate, that doesn't mean that we're going to be successful, we just had to have a reason for it. Because I think you know, Annette, to your point, I think a lot of times what happens is people will set kind of an arbitrary standard. You have, for instance, like I worked with one organization in the past where their minimum number of push ups or they did was 22. And so after I kind of asked a few more questions like, well, guess what, that's how many the chief can do. So that's why it was 22. arbitrary. So, you know, with that being said, you gotta be really, really careful about that process. So when we started that process with the Colorado State Patrol, in particular, we actually looked at two different fitness standards, which sounds a little bit contradictory, but we started looking at from the approach of, if you are a uniformed officer versus a cadet, like, you really have a different job. So a cadets job is to train, whereas a uniformed officers job is to be an officer. With a cadet schedule, it's very prescribed. And I mean, you know, to some extent, if if you say, hey, four weeks into training at 9am, in the morning, on Tuesday, where are they going to be, we're probably gonna have a pretty good idea what that looks like. So it's one of those things where with them, when we started looking at what their job was to do is it was really to be able to survive training and to be able to become an officer. So when we kind of looked at a little bit different, in a little bit different lens, where we said, Okay, what's the primary reason why people have to exit Academy, and with this particular Academy, it was entry. So basically, what we did is we went back in and we did some prediction equations and looked at individuals that got hurt versus those that did not. So very unsophisticated, unsophisticated stats upfront on my part, literally was a basic t test and go hey, guess what the people who tend to get through tend to be more fit than those adults. So we we established that first. Then we started looking at at each one of the individual metrics. And so I think we had to do vertical jump push ups that up and beat test. And as we started going back in and look at those numbers, what We saw is that, in general, people that had fewer than 32, push ups had about a 50 50% percent chance of getting through the academy. Individuals who had fewer than 39 shuttles on the beat test had about a 40% chance of getting through. But when we combine those two factors, so if you did fewer than 30, push ups and had fewer than 39, shuttles, your odds of getting through went down to 14%. Dang. So that that was what things were, we actually just gave that to recruiters and said, Look, we're not giving you a hard and fast cut score here. If you want to select somebody, you're fully within your rights to do that. But just recognize this is another deciding factor whenever you're making that choice is if they look like this, they're also getting through maybe pretty poor. And what we you know, I think the overall estimate was for Every cadet that was recycled, it was basically about $170,000 for the state of Colorado.
Annette Zapp: 20:55
Holy moly.
Jay Dawes: 20:56
Yeah. So in all honesty, that's just looking at kind of the the training costs, that's not necessarily take into account, okay, now you've got, you know, this Trooper that was supposed to be at this, you know, substation, and now you're down a person there, because they didn't get through. So now that puts a stress and its toll on the rest of the trooper. So, you know, that's really not even looking at the total full picture. But that was the best we could kind of extrapolate out. But basically, what they did is they use that standard when they went out recruited. And over the next five to six training academies. If memory serves, I think they only reported to individual how to exit due to either injury or an illness. So one gentleman unfortunately had cancer, and then another individual, I think, roll their ankle when they were on Iran. So you know, in previous to that, if memory serves, I think they were losing close to 20%. That's outstanding. Yeah. And, you know, looking at it was it was really, you know, interesting for all of us that were involved in that process, when you really start breaking down, look at the metrics and you know, you know, looking at, okay, what does a successful Cadet look like? And the one thing I do want to provide caution with on that is like, that was for this particular Academy, you know, so you know, if you belong to academy where maybe they don't do a lot of push ups, and they don't do a lot of endurance work, it may be different metrics that you would have to look at. But the process kind of works the same way. So yeah, it was it was really interesting to us. And I think, you know, by and large, it helped make sure that the individuals that were getting into Academy had a better chance of getting through and alternative become officers.
Annette Zapp: 22:30
So it's just informing your decision when you're recruiting. That's amazing. So and then did you repeat that process with incumbents as well?
Unknown: 22:38
We tried, we actually ran into a whole lot of snags. At that point in time, there was a lawsuit that was pretty notable that was going on in Colorado, and it put all that just to a grinding halt. As far as that went. Now, I can say this, the standard was never implemented. However, from that, profile wise, we can pretty much tell you the people who are going to be more successful on job tasks. So looking at that, you know, what we saw is like people, if you could do roughly 30, to 40, push ups and sit ups and you know, roughly 40 shuttles on a beep test, you're probably gonna be fine. That didn't mean you're never going to be outstanding. But that meant that you could at least probably meet some minimum competencies and things of that nature, you might be mediocre, and you might be mediocre or average.
Annette Zapp: 23:25
Okay, so have you had personal experience in this process and fire for fit for duty? Or? No,
Jay Dawes: 23:33
I haven't had it to the same extent and fire. So in the past, what we've tried to do is we try to go back in and look at some of the injury data and try to predict who wouldn't who would not get through? To be honest, one of the biggest challenges that we've had is with some of the agencies that I've worked with the recording process wasn't as detailed as it was with the Colorado State Patrol. So we weren't able to make those extrapolations. But we have looked at that over, you're trying to do some longitudinal work with some of those different groups, yet, we haven't done it yet, though.
Annette Zapp: 24:05
Okay. And so if there is a chief out there, or a training and safety officer from an agency that's listening and saying, you know what, we've been kicking around this idea of fit for duty for years, we really, really need to look into it. What are sort of your best tips, your best practices, your things that, you know, be careful to not to trip over this pothole, what would you tell those agencies?
Jay Dawes: 24:30
Yeah, you know, I think the biggest thing is just making sure that whatever standard you set is defensible. And when I say that, like Is this reasonable? You know, regardless of age, sex, you know, is this what a firefighter needs to do in order to be successful their job? Now, the challenge with that is, is defining what successful means because that, you know, that bar kind of changes depending on who you ask, you know, I know that the CPAT has done traditionally as you know, kind of an entry level test and, you know, to get you in the door, you know, there's been a lot of agencies that kind of refer back to that as kind of their their standard, which intuitively kind of makes sense. But you know, if you're going into saying, like, for instance, you need to do X number of push ups, sit ups or, you know, be able to run a 1.5 mile test in a certain amount of time, that's where it becomes a little bit more challenging. Because if you can't show a manifest relationship between those fitness tests to the actual job tasks, then the opportunity for litigation goes way up. At that point.
Annette Zapp: 25:29
Did you ever have to go to court
Jay Dawes: 25:30
I have not yet
Annette Zapp: 25:31
Amazing!
Jay Dawes: 25:32
However, not yet, not yet fully prepared, and I'm sure it will happen someday. So...
Annette Zapp: 25:38
I'm just going to be honest with you and throw it out here. I do not know a lot about how the CPAT was validated. Is that something that you have sort of expertise in that you can explain to the listeners?
Jay Dawes: 25:49
Yeah, I don't know exactly how CPAT was validated. I do know that if you look at a lot of different occupational tests, there's kind of, there's a few things that you need to do in order to go through that process. Really, the biggest one is, it's going to require subject matter experts to go in and validate that, you know, whatever standard being set is, in fact, accurate. So like, for instance, like a casualty extraction. So let's say that that was an essential job tasks that you have to perform in order to do your job. So with that, there's three main variables that I really need to know in order to help narrow that down in order to, you know, figure out what what the standard should be. So the first one is, how much did that victim way, if you, you know, I've worked with one group in the past where, you know, the victim was 120 pounds. That's, that's kind of a child, child. And so we looked at the average weight of the person in that agency, and it was 205 pounds. And so we started looking at that, and this was a law enforcement group. So with duty belt gear, and all that it was roughly about 225. So we set the weight of the dummy at 225, which a lot of people did not like that very much. But the thing about it was, we could we could explain it and justify it. And I think that was the key is, you know, we understand that you may not like it, however, it's reasonable to assume that if you get into a bad situation, you may have to pull your partner out of harm's way. So we need to make sure that you can do that. The second part of that is with that particular test is how far to drag them, you know, so what is a reasonable distance to look at, you know, dragging that casualty. So, in that case, because that was with the the Colorado State Patrol, we set it at 8.54 meters. Main reason is from the meeting of the intersection to the shoulder road, it was exactly 8.54. So we said, okay, that's, that's reasonable, based off what they'd have to do for firefighting. I have worked with a few groups where we have discussed it. And you know, a lot of them have said that, you know, what they would ascribe to as maybe having the casualty in a back bedroom and trying to look at, you know, what's the average distance from a back bedroom to the front door, which that would, that would make sense, because that's, again, something that you might have to do those and oddly enough of those two things are relatively easy compared to the last one, which is the time required to do it. Because that's the thing, it's just all over the map. So when we did that particular test, we actually had four subject matter experts come in and write every single person that went and to drag them 8.54 meters, it took, I think, between the range was 3.8 seconds to 18.5. And so we asked, okay, based off this timeframe, did you know who Pat who passed and who failed, and everybody passed? So I was like, alright, well, it looks like as long as you can get this done 18 seconds, and it looks like you're sweet, because we didn't really have anything else to base. Now the average was about six seconds. So that's the whole thing is like, you know, passing failing, you know, versus, you know, preferred and ideal are completely different conversations. And I think the thing that basically keeps me up at night is, it wakes me up in the middle of night, is, when you're looking at these fitness standards, it's not necessarily what's the best that you need to be, but what's the worst that you need to be? So and I hate to say that, but what is the lowest common denominator to do this job task, and that's almost where you got to set your standard? Well, it actually is where you have to set your standard because again, the the whole point is to figure out who can do the job and who can't. Now with that being said, we do have, again, really good information that shows the more fit you are, the better you're able to perform that job. So that's kind of information that we'd like to provide is saying like, you know, hey, here's kind of how you rank and where you stacked up to the group. And we'll do percentile rankings and things like that. So then how they relate to their group. And also, you know, the people who scored in the top, you know, maybe 75% look like this and, you know, so on and so forth from a fitness standpoint, so they say at least gives people some aspirational standards to try and aim for.
Annette Zapp: 29:52
So if an agency again, they're listening to this, and they're saying, Okay, this all makes sense. We need to find a subject matter or expert? Is it? Is it reasonable to say find someone at a local area college? That's sort of doing research?
Jay Dawes: 30:08
Absolutely not. That's probably the worst place you can go. Yeah, so we're really good at academics, we're not firefighters. And that's the one thing is, it's like I said before, Jesse, you're staying in the garage doesn't make you a car. I can literally, I mean, I can go in there, I can measure people, I can give you the data, I can, you know, eyeball test, I like, Hey, I think this would help. But the bottom line is, I'm not a firefighter. So the firefighter is the SME. So they know what successful job performance is versus why because I mean, you know, I watched Backdraft, but that doesn't make me an expert. Right.
Annette Zapp: 30:40
Backdraft was a documentary Jay!
Jay Dawes: 30:42
Fair enough. But, looking at that, I mean, I think that is the reality is like, that's why I think, in the research that I've done, you know, I've learned a ton, I probably hopefully learn as much, I'd probably learned more than the agencies I've worked with, hopefully, they've got something out of it, too. But I think that is the big thing is, you know, again, because I don't do that job. It truly is a collaborative effort, where, you know, these are the skills that I bring to the table. These are the skills that the agencies bring to the table, and we really do work together to find the best solutions.
Annette Zapp: 31:10
I love that. That's amazing. Soyou're now at Oklahoma State. Yes. We sort of skipped over the interim, but you're now at Oklahoma State. And you are doing research in drum roll.... Firefighters, correct? Tell me about it. What are you researching?
Jay Dawes: 31:29
Yeah, so one of the well, the study that we lost, often to last year, we actually got a grant to do it, we were actually going to have 48 week training study, to see if we can improve movement skills by doing individualized training programs. Really fantastic idea turned into a little bit of a dumpster fire. But that's okay. So it's interesting. And this is to be blunt, it's made me question everything about the research process in this space as far as what really matters? And what are we looking at. So give you for instance, like people did reasonably well, getting up that first 12 weeks. So we got some good pre post data from that, that we can show some good change from and the good news is, is most people did did very well. The overwhelming majority of individuals were they struggled in order to maintain the program. We had a lot of situation where people kind of dropped out of the program, and then all of a sudden, they dropped back in and say, Hey, I'm back. And you know, hey, I was living my best life for the last month. But hey, I'm back now. And the thing about it is is in reality, that's, that's okay. It's sucks for research. I mean, the journal article would absolutely tear it up. But the reality of it is, it's having a big impact on that agency. And I think that's where I've kind of shifted my focus a little bit, you know, I've really been more of a quantitative researcher over the years. And now it's almost those qualitative aspects that you can't put a number on, you know, how do you really measure impact. And, you know, a lot of times, you know, me and a lot of my colleagues will say, it's not the impact factor. And that's something that you have in journal articles that, you know, basically rate how good of a journal you get into, but it's not the impact factor is the actual impact that you have. And sometimes you can't put a number on it. So that's, oddly enough, I'm starting to move into a whole lot of mixed methods stuff. And actually qualitative research, which I mean, if anybody listen to this as a quantitative person that should horrify you, but it's a but I think that's the whole thing is it does the numbers don't tell the full story. Give you another example, is we have one individual who did not want to work with me, we got along fantastic, but he did not want to come in and do testing. And he did not want to get a program directly from me. I think probably some of it was maybe a little bit of embarrassment. Maybe, you know, not wanting to know more, probably a little bit of a prideful thing. But I wrote a program for one of the people that he went through training with, and so he wanted to start working out with him. And so very long story short, over the course of about eight months, the guy's dropped like 30 pounds and is feeling great looking great. Went to his pain management clinic and I said hey, like, you know, how are you feeling? And he said, Man, I feel fantastic. I'm don't have any pain. They went back in they did X rays and MRI, they go like your spine is actually straightening up. And they're like, What is this black magic that you're doing? Like it's just exercise. It wasn't anything crazy exercise, but and that was the thing is like they were they were really excited about I'm like, Look, I said yeah, he was just really consistent with the program. And you know, it's, it's the stuff that we already know. But he had the ability to go and be consistent with it and he, you know, got the benefit from it. But looking at that I will never get a piece of data off that person. But it's changed his whole life. It's changed the people's life around him. It's changed the culture within the group. And I think that's, that's the thing now that that I'm really passionate about and excited about how We tell some of those stories that the numbers don't always reflect. And I think the coaches listening will probably understand that quite a bit. And I think and I think for me, like, like you kind of alluded to, and it's like, I've really been fortunate throughout my career to kind of have that blend of both coaching and research. And I think that keeps a really good balance for me, because it allows me to kind of see both sides of it and not get too stuck in an academic mindset. And vice versa, on the practitioner side is, you know, trying to be a little bit more careful that what I'm doing to make sure we can document certain things so we can actually measure improvement progress.
Annette Zapp: 35:32
The coaches listening are like, Yes, I get it. The researchers listening are dying inside.
Jay Dawes: 35:37
I'm sure they are. Yes. Well, I am. But I think again, that is the reality of the situation is like, you know, not not everything that matters can be measured by a number.
Annette Zapp: 35:46
I agree 100%. So, we're going to start wrapping up, because it's pretty close to dinnertime here in Indiana, if we're being honest. But if you had to give perhaps your top 2,3,4 tips to a firefighter, maybe a younger firefighter, that's just getting into the job, based on your research, based on your experience, based on everything you've seen, what tips would you give them?
Jay Dawes: 36:12
Oh, well, I mean, I mean, I'm a really firm believer in keeping it simple. I think probably the number one thing is, it's always easier to maintain fitness, that is to regain it after you've lost it. So just do something. And I don't want to say lower your expectations, because that sounds terrible. But, you know, some of the things we've seen is that, you know, even as little as 13 to 15 minutes of working out per day, can help preserve and maintain. And it's one of the things where overall, it's not necessarily, it's not a huge time commitment, even though it does feel like it but I think one thing is just make it a priority. And you know, I tell my kids this a lot like last week, it was 930 at night, and I hadn't got my workout in, I'm like, Alright, I'm going to the gym, and I got so late and my kids, I said this is the thing: motivation and commitment are two different things. And it's one of those things like, this is this is one of those situations, like I'm committed to doing it, there is no part of me that wants to go in there. But after about 10 minutes, I'm gonna be fine, and it's gonna be okay. And I'm gonna be glad I did it. So it's really just making that commitment to do something. Whatever it is.
Annette Zapp: 37:17
Outstanding. I just got my quote for the podcast, motivation and commitment are two different things. All right, Jay, is there anything that you were just dying to share that I forgot to ask you about?
Jay Dawes: 37:29
Oh, man, no, honestly, I'm just really grateful to, to be able to share whatever I can. Hopefully this is helpful for the listeners. If it's not. Again, please reach out to me. I think anytime we do something like this, I always have that healthy fear that, you know, it wasn't useful. So if there's other stuff that I can go into or other assistance that you need, don't hesitate to reach out on an email or phone call away. So yeah, just again, don't hesitate. Do you mind sharing that email? And I'll put it in the show notes. Yeah, absolutely. So it's a jay.dawes@okstate.edu
Annette Zapp: 38:05
All right, beautiful. Well, listeners, thank you again for joining me on the Fire Rescue Wellness podcast. This has been AZ. And one of my favorite people, Dr. Jay Dawes and we're out... going to dinner!!!
